Discussing Villages in Randomizer UHC
PrivateLimitless - 2020-10-07 03:47:37 UTCBefore we start I, again, am going to mention my More Win Boards suggestion to try to fix the Wins boards into being more logical. The "Suggestion" is toward the bottom, if you want to just neglect the essay that took two hours to write.
Aside: This my second time trying to write this essay, so I am understandably angry. Just know that when you read the tone in the essay... sorry in advance. You didn't think I was going to write an essay, did you? Well I've spent the past two days thinking about this, so I'ma write this. It’s not going to be very formal, probably a lot of contractions and contradictions on myself.
This essay is about the usefulness of having villages in Randomizer games. Villages contain many things that are useful in all games, but have a lot more use in Randomizer games than in any other game currently on the Server. I will be discussing a few topics, and going over how they affect the game. I will be attempting to address both sides and bring out the logic of the situation and what needs to happen. Specifically, I will be going over these three topics: The usefulness of libraries and other houses, ways to obtain and purchase emeralds from trading as well as from drops, and the items you can purchase from trading with emeralds.
Looks up “prepositional phrases” At the beginning, I would like to address the least important, in my opinion, advantage that villages give. This being the different houses. Upon a simple Minecraft Wiki search, I found out that the number of houses and which houses are in the village is completely random. Specifically the Minecraft Wiki says, “Apart from the meeting point, which is unique and systematic, the number of buildings of each type is randomly generated…” This means that libraries and blacksmiths are common occurrences. I could not find any sources on what the loot table is specifically for blacksmith chests, but I do know that they have the ability to have at least two iron to craft shears. Shears give access to several, I don’t want to go count, more drops. The libraries also have a crafting table, which can be extremely overpowered in unlucky games that contain no wood or containers. The library crafting table usually isn’t overpowered, luckily. What is more overpowered is the villagers who live in the village homes.
At the risk of being incorrect, I looked up 1.8 villager trades on Reddit to see what was going on. Here is a list of items that I will explain the effectiveness of after: wheat, potatoes, carrots, pumpkins(I think), melons, string, coal, wool, paper, books, iron, diamond, leather, rotten flesh, and gold. These are all items that can be used to purchase emeralds from villagers. They are also all drops in Randomizer. This is fifteen different chances to trade with villagers, but there are more than fifteen ways to get these items(Note: not fifteen items each, fifteen items in total.). Additionally, there are three more ways to obtain emeralds from drops. These drops are emerald blocks, emeralds, and emerald ore which can be cooked to obtain emeralds. “But what can you buy with these emeralds?” This leads me to my next topic.
Upon further inspection of the Reddit post, I can see there are more overpowered items purchasable than I realized when I started to write this. For starters you need to remember that most, not all, of the items you can buy from the villagers are new items that you cannot get from drops or find anywhere else and therefore are an advantage on their own. Additionally, Fletches give a bow for 2-3 emeralds and 8-12 arrows for a single emerald. So, at minimum, you can buy a bow with a stack of arrows for 11 emeralds(Does that not sound extremely overpowered?). Bow spammers get an easy win, and just refuse to fight. Sounds fun… You can also buy lvl 1-30 books for between 5-64 emeralds, meaning you can potentially get a Sharpness/Protection 2-4 book for a low amount of emeralds. Thankfully, I barely ever find normal books from drops. The shepherd sells shears as well, so you likely don’t even need the blacksmith chest loot. From the Armorer you can buy a lvl 5-19 enchanted diamond chestplate, and from the Weapon Smith you can purchase a lvl 5-19 enchanted iron and diamond sword. These can be extremely overpowered trades.
(Now is the point in an essay when the writer takes a look at the other side’s opinion. Time to copy and paste from the Discord to save me time.) Some people might say something like, “The trading gives an advantage to that player because they found one, and that's mainly the point of UHC, in Speed UHC you could only mine iron items and you could mine full diamond enchanted. They are both based on luck. You are lucky to find a village in Randomizer and lucky to mine for full diamond in Speed UHC.” My response to this that you shouldn't just win the game solely because you spawn near a village or in a certain biome. This is because it takes away from the point of the game, and makes it not skill-based but spawn-based. I would rather have to work for items in the game than have them, basically, given to me. Also, I feel like they misinterpret the difference in odds of finding villages, usually there being multiple, and mining for full diamond in Speed UHC. There is a very large difference in the rarity of diamonds versus the rarity of finding a village in Minecraft.
In this brief, very short compared to what I was going to write, essay about the usefulness of finding a village in Randomizer was discussed. In the end, I learned a lot from writing this and I hope that you did as well after you skimmed through it. Again, the three main topics discussed were the usefulness of libraries and other houses, the ways to obtain and purchase emeralds from trading as well as from drops, and the items you can purchase from trading with emeralds. Go ahead and write what you think although you’ll most likely disagree with my logic and neglect how overpowered they are for personal bias.
The Suggestion: It seems to me that there are three options and one completely non-serious, meme one:
- Completely ignore the essay I just wrote and do absolutely nothing, which at this point I just expect.
- Find a way to nerf villager trades, which I would have no idea how to do, or not have villagers spawn in villages anymore.
- I was going to say disable Generate Structures, but then I looked it up and saw that there are multiple things under that category, so that would be too far. So, finding a way to disable the generation of villages entirely.
- Spawn in with Spawn Villager eggs to give everyone the ability to trade for items. Or better yet, have the Spawn Villager eggs be a possible drop item.
Which one was the meme idea? I don't know. Number 4 was supposed to be it, but after thinking of it and writing it I think that it actually makes complete sense to do.
P.S. This took 2 hours to research and write, so uh... comment and do not just negative it...
- Private
Vote: -5
Comments (7)
WaffleDrkluz - 2020-10-07 04:52:57 UTCI cant believe you made an essay on this. I really do not agree with this but you are allowed to have an opinion. If I use your logic of not winning because you spawned in a village then should we get rid of caves and diamonds so that everybody only has iron so that its fair? based on what you think players should not win because they ended up finding diamonds. Anyways, I do respect you opinion but I dont agree with it also.
PrivateLimitless - 2020-10-07 05:02:17 UTC< If I use your logic of not winning because you spawned in a village then should we get rid of caves and diamonds so that everybody only has iron so that its fair?
I don't know how what I said had anything to do with getting rid of caves in the slightest, but okay. That's a wild conclusion from what I said. You're basically saying that since I don't like someone that I want their entire family "gotten rid of," too, which doesn't make any sense.
< based on what you think players should not win because they ended up finding diamonds.
I never said either.
Did you read the essay or just skim through to the parts you wanted to hear? Lol
Last update: 2020-10-07 05:23:48 UTC PrivateLimitless - 2020-10-07 05:03:41 UTCAnd even if I did, my opinion wasn't the point of the suggestion. It's the part literally saying "The Suggestion." Also if you look toward the facts in paragraph four about what items you can get, and how insanely cheap they are, you can see that it isn't exactly a balanced sort-of advantage when you roll up to Meetup with a Sharp 5 or full Prot 4 when everyone is only has level 1 enchants or is completely unenchanted. And, yeah, the part about getting it off spawn matters too. You can find a Godly trade, trade for it, (this is when it gets to player-based and my opinion) then kill the villager so that even if someone found the village they would not have a chance. But those are, mainly, just the facts. Not at all an opinion. (This next part is though) Also, the Fletcher trade is terrible for everything other than Vanilla Minecraft. Completely ruins the game, and allows for bow spamming to annoy people.
Last update: 2020-10-07 05:39:44 UTC
KaiNoMood - 2020-10-07 11:14:48 UTCTL;DR:
PrivateLimitless says that it's unbalanced that some player will find villages because villages are OP (allegedly), in particular trading with villagers. He suggests to make villagers more common or remove/nerf them. I suggest to either ban villager trades completely, or randomize the villager trades as well.
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First of all, I am impressed on the effort you put to write this suggestion. It shows you're a very committed community member and I am very happy about it.
Personally, I believe that luck should be part of the game. But this is not only luck: skilled players like you know that villagers can be a good way to get good stuff. Other players don't even know they can trade with the villagers, and most of them will just ignore them. So there is a skill factor in here. The time is limited, so you also need to be fast to trade with the villagers the right stuff... it's not entirely luck.
What WaffleDrkluz is trying to say is that all games have a "luck" factor. For example, in SpeedUHC you can't be sure you will find diamonds, while others may get full diamond. It's just pure luck of finding ravines with gold and diamonds, or just mining and finding all the diamonds somehow.
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Now about your suggestions.
First, I want to remind everyone that just saying to do something won't make it happen. There are several technical issues to consider, and a lot of things that may seem simple to a player are actually insane to make for me. Please remember I'm the only guy who will have to make the changes, and it takes a lot of effort.
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"nerf villager trades"
I don't think it's worth the effort to make custom trades.
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"disable the generation of villages entirely."
The maps are pregenerated, and I can't spend more server resources to generate maps without structures.
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"not have villagers spawn in villages anymore"
As the maps are pregenerated, the villagers will already be there.
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"Spawn in with Spawn Villager eggs to give everyone the ability to trade for items"
It does not feel right for a Randomizer game to have Spawn Villager eggs.
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These are the options I feel like they could solve this:
- Ban Villager trades. It could even be a Scenario on itself. The villagers would be there, but you can't interact with them. This is the simplest solution.
- Randomize the villager trades. This would make them less reliable as you won't know if they will give OP stuff. This requires a bit of effort, but it's doable.
Although banning villager trades would be a piece of cake for me to implement, I feel like the best solution would be randomizing the villager trades.
Last update: 2020-10-07 11:34:33 UTC WaffleDrkluz - 2020-10-07 16:42:55 UTCI agree with Kai, removing the villagers would not change the game for the people who dont know how to use them (cough cough me) but affect the people who are really good, like PoofessorP and Private Limitless, because that what makes them good players. I think randomizing the trades is the best way to do it.
PoofessorP - 2020-10-08 23:29:24 UTCI really don't think removing villagers is necessary, there are so many factors in randomizer that have to go into trading to be able to get a proper decent trade. You have to find a village, you have to find an anvil, you have to find a book (for librarian trades) you have to find the right villager, you have to find what drops emeralds (and you're not always guaranteed to get a village) the only thing OP enough to be nerfed in my opinion is fletcher. You only need emeralds and the right villager to get a hefty amount of arrows and a bow, and as for this I only bowspam against people I know will have gotten a ton of healing, so I can drain their healing to 0 golden apples so we're on the same level of healing, and then I go in for melee. And as for the other villagers I think they're fine as they are honestly. If we want to nerf them for being a really good way to obtain items but also being inconsistent, we should ban OP books found in minecart chests, strong hold chests, spawner chests. Or even the person on the odd chance that they make a power 5 in dragon rush. I think randomizing the villager trades would just be the same thing as disabling them. No one would bother because you definitely have a better chance of finding stuff through chest depositing or dispenser depositing. You also have to remember villager trading often takes a fair amount of time out of your game to get, I've had a couple of randomizer games where I missed out on crucial items (infinite healing, pearls, and diamond armor) just because I was busy trading to villagers. I just really don't think they're a big enough deal to make any changes to, with how many factors go into randomizer.
Edit: also, I read the whole thing, but that was a few days and I was thinking of what to respond to this with so maybe I said something you already said
Last update: 2020-10-08 23:33:21 UTC KaiNoMood - 2020-10-10 17:55:25 UTCPoof you said "think randomizing the villager trades would just be the same thing as disabling them. No one would bother because you definitely have a better chance of finding stuff through chest depositing or dispenser depositing."
You would still give it a quick check just in case there is a villager that trades sticks for diamond blocks! Randomizing trades is not the same as disabling them...
Last update: 2020-10-10 17:56:14 UTCYou need to be logged in to post a comment!